It's annoying trying to fill out your account information, which takes you some time, then when you click continue it says Slow Poke! You took to long! With an orc scatching his head! Why did they even put that on there, and does anyone know how long you have to fill your info out?
That isn't end game.
Get back to me when you've spent 8 hours straight practicing encounters in BWL and AQ.actually it is endgame, it's just not the raiding endgame
Hello? If your going to talk about something else other then what I need help with then go make another thread.
last time i checked LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Scholo were end game for some people, you know.... the ones that have better things to do besides spend 8-10 hours playing a game :dwm_happy
This is L2Guru. Wrong forum.
And it really doesn't take that long to do the instances, just to learn them. :P
And no, UBRS isn't end game.
You could say any part of any game is end game for people who don't want to or can't go further, but that's a ridiculous explanation.
Of course it's not much different from other MMOs, which is one reason why I don't play them anymore, but I never said it's unique to WoW in the first place
What do I fail to realize? I don't quite get the point you're trying to make there because what you mention isn't at discussion, it's fact - you're exactly describing the problem WoW has at the endgame, and this little argument of ours is exactly what's wrong with the game. There shouldn't be a difference (at least not of the current magnitude) between the small group/solo endgame and a raiding endgame of much higher quality in each and every regard.
Again, there shouldn't be the requirement to schedule your life around a group of 39 other people in order to have fun in PvP and in order to advance your avatar, but of course I'm aware that this is the case. I guess that's what I'm trying to say - admittedly the serious endgame as designed by Blizzard is the raid content, but a lot of people don't get to see that and the reasons are more elaborate than "they're just lazy/incompetent". Your statement was elitist, ignorant and ultimately unnecessary. For a lot of people the ancient group instances are indeed the pinnacle of their WoW adventures, for a lot of them DM is as endgame as it gets, and denying it because it doesn't apply to you doesn't make your flawed reasoning any more true.
Yes it's no fun to PvP with UBRS gear, nor is it fun to be locked out of much of the serious content (not only regarding loot, I'm also talking story and quest design here - people who don't raid haven't gotten a single new place since DM came out, were locked out of all the official WarCraft storyline progression and come Naxxramas will continue to do so, and the AQ cepter quest line, the most creative, most hilarious quest line in the whole game, is limited to raid guilds as well) while having the awesome "casual" content like faction grind, faction grind, faction grind, more faction grind, and farming quest grind. But as of Blizzard's broken gamedesign, that's the only choice many people have
actually, you'll have a hard time convincing me ANY class is underpowered. What happens to PvP with all that imba raid gear is a whole different topic
you fail to consider the most important reason why people play games, MMOs and otherwise - they want to have fun, and even though you're too dense to get the point, some people play for other reasons than you and for them, maybe raiding isn't fun enough. And if you don't want to, or can't raid, for various reasons, the instances mentioned are endgame, period, end of discussion. If that's too high for you, that's not my problem
The gear issue is no different from any other game that is out there. Those who have the higher end gear will always have a fairly good chance of dominating.
For example..
You take two level 55 gladiators from L2, one equipped in top b-grade gear and the other wearing low/mid c-grade gear. Who is going to win that fight 95% of the time?
Do I understand the point about fun? Yes, I do. Yet what you fail to realize is that how much fun is a pvp game where you are constantly getting stomped out by people who are extremely better geared than you? Its of no great surprise that the end game guilds who are decked out in purples will usually stomp out their compeition since their ability to raid often means they are able to communicate the necessary information when going into pvp situations.
I'm sorry, but when you can go into some of these places at level 55, I have a hard time seeing that as "end game" material. When I can take my mage into some of these "end game" instances and solo farm them for certain items.
I can't. I have no account name and pass. This is a problem with trying to create one.
you can raid ZG twice and MC once in the beginning of your raid career and you can easily spend 10 hours/week on that as a guild which just starts raiding, been there, done that, and *why* someone won't raid doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the statement that "endgame" doesn't mean AQ for quite many. Not to mention it's totally pointless to argue over a single stupid word...
That isn't end game.
Get back to me when you've spent 8 hours straight practicing encounters in BWL and AQ.
last time i checked LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Scholo were end game for some people, you know.... the ones that have better things to do besides spend 8-10 hours playing a game :dwm_happy
Again, there shouldn't be the requirement to schedule your life around a group of 39 other people in order to have fun in PvP and in order to advance your avatar, but of course I'm aware that this is the case.
Maybe massively multiplayer isn't clear enough. If only they made games where you didn't need to interact with other people and only played on your own time. It's a shame no such game exists.
No, you're looking for a single player game that only involves other people when you want them to be there, ala D2.
I'm not saying one way is right or wrong, but you shouldn't be incredulous that an MMORPG requires you to depend on other people to advance.
Hello? If your going to talk about something else other then what I need help with then go make another thread.
post your problem here :of_happy: better results
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.aspx?fn=wow-tech-support
actually it is endgame, it's just not the raiding endgame
lol, plz dont mention MC/BWL/AQ bring back bad memories of me rotting my life away 8-10 hours at a time for a item that might not drop that run :dem_cry: Warlocks ftw! tho got 7/8 Felheart my first MC run with mine
P.S Arduous Journey, Gurubashi server ftw 1st Rag/Nef down. Good Times :/
actually, you'll have a hard time convincing me ANY class is underpowered. What happens to PvP with all that imba raid gear is a whole different topic
you fail to consider the most important reason why people play games, MMOs and otherwise - they want to have fun, and even though you're too dense to get the point, some people play for other reasons than you and for them, maybe raiding isn't fun enough. And if you don't want to, or can't raid, for various reasons, the instances mentioned are endgame, period, end of discussion. If that's too high for you, that's not my problem
And by the way, end game would be by definition the END of the game. Getting to 60 is about 50% of the game. Even if your level doesn't increase, your power does.
as I said, not everyone likes to schedule his RL around a *computer game* and sync it with 39 other people in order to go raid for phat lewts, and for those the mentioned instances are endgame, period
but anyway, fuck you, this ain't the place for yet another pointless "raid or die" discussion
Cry more.
Most who play MMO's can make enough time to make a raid once or twice a week for three-four hours. Thats roughly two pick-up runs for UBRS + travel time. Sure, the initial time spent learning the instance is rather long, yet once you understand and execute properly, the time commitment goes down rather quickly.
We're not talking about the guilds that run 40 man raids every night.
Coming from a Lineage 2 board, I can't help but wonder if you have ever sieged before. That requires an alliance of 80-100 people to show up for two-three hours/day on the weekend. Isn't that roughly what the gripe was? Erica wasn't the most active of servers, yet there was often 150-200 people at the sieges.
But yea..I always get a good chuckle when scrubs such as yourself whine about stuff like this. Whats next? Complaining about how your class was underpowered with your "end-game" low level dungeon set?
last time i checked LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Scholo were end game for some people, you know.... the ones that have better things to do besides spend 8-10 hours playing a game :dwm_happy
Last time I checked..
If you are running LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Scholo as end game material, you must not be good enough to get into a real raiding guild.
If you are taking 8-10 hours to clear MC, you are either learning the instance or just be a step above the guilds that raid Strat.
Sorry if we clear BWL in under 3 hours ^_^
It says your session has time out! It is really really annoying me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
It's annoying trying to fill out your account information, which takes you some time, then when you click continue it says Slow Poke! You took to long! With an orc scatching his head! Why did they even put that on there, and does anyone know how long you have to fill your info out?
get back to me after you have done LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Scholo over 50 times total:hf_cry2: WoW end game ftw
so much hate
get a clue, massively multiplayer != forced grouping and it's especially not forced grouping at a large scale, just because EQ has done it doesn't mean every MMO has to do the same thing...
MMO means that you're playing in a persistent world where player interaction plays a huge role. Having several hundred other players around minding their own business already qualifies for that, and so does trading with other people, fighting other people, and of course group adventure options are player interaction too. Actually a lot of people would love to have the option of small group content at the same quality level of your average BWL raid, this isn't mainly about solo-content. Of course the focus of MMOs isn't single player story progression, but there's a huge difference between "player interaction" and "now if you want to "play", sync your game schedule with 39 or more other people"
WoW started with the premise that even though it's an MMO, you're free to advance at your own pace and pursue your own playstyle. At lvl.60 - the cap which is endgame by definition - that choice ceases to exist and only raiding becomes viable. If you don't wanna level past 40 that's not endgame, it's quitting the game, but at lvl.60 things are fundamentally different because for many people the *possible* character progress stops right before the raid focused content kicks in. Here, for you, again: It's not people don't WANT to go on, it's they CAN'T.
get back to me after you have done LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Scholo over 50 times total:hf_cry2: WoW end game ftw
That isn't end game.
Get back to me when you've spent 8 hours straight practicing encounters in BWL and AQ.
as I said, not everyone likes to schedule his RL around a *computer game* and sync it with 39 other people in order to go raid for phat lewts, and for those the mentioned instances are endgame, period
but anyway, fuck you, this ain't the place for yet another pointless "raid or die" discussion
I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your argument and providing an alternative point of view, personally I have nothing against raiding - on the other hand it shouldn't be the be all, end all either. I had a pretty polite and lengthy reply laid out in my head but then I remembered that "never argue with an idiot" quote so I'll leave it at the following comments:
If you think you deserve special treatment in a computer game because you chose a different playstyle than someone else, I can't help you and I think no one on this planet can
If you think insanely powered raid gear adds more to game balance than it destroys, you should apply for playtesting/-balancing at NCsoft, they need more geniuses like that
If you think "multiplayer game" means "huge artificial power gaps in favor of those who play more", go check out multiplayer genres where people win with practice, not because they get access to twice as powerful weapons and units after logging 1337 hours
If you can't acknowledge that WoW divides the playerbase into a group of people for whom endgame means AQ/BWL, and another for whom it means UBRS/DM, you should really lay off the drugs and pay more attention to your surroundings
raid 10hrs/week after you did the lvl.60 group content = upgrades and a steady flow of fresh content; don't raid after that for 10-1000hrs/week = you don't move an inch, how hard's that to understand?
One last thing - it's my firm belief that the genre - and life on earth in general - would really improve if every single powergamer on the planet died at once...
Stellar argument!
You've been confusing two different arguments this entire time. Some people don't like raiding, some just don't like spending that much time in the game. The first is a 'you' problem, whether your guildmates are dicks or you are. The second is a much more valid problem, except that you're overdramatizing the time needed with a competant group.
If you think you deserve special treatment in a computer game because you chose a different playstyle than someone else, I can't help you and I think no one on this planet can
Unless your playstyle is less than one hour straight playing, then you do have an opportunity to advance. You'll go much slower, but anything over an hour is enough time to practice or run a raid. The only time instances take massive amounts of hours is when the .01% of top guilds run them when they first open. That is completely obsessive, but normal guilds can spend a couple hours total a week learning raids and eventually learn finish them within that time. That is why 20+ man raids SAVE.
If you want the ability to start and stop whenever you want on a basis less than one hour, then that IS a single player game you're looking for. It's a burden to your group as well.
If you think insanely powered raid gear adds more to game balance than it destroys, you should apply for playtesting/-balancing at NCsoft, they need more geniuses like that
I played a mage so I can agree with most of that point, however a person who just turned 60 shouldn't be as powerful as someome who has been there for 4 months. There would be no end game if there weren't more items/skills/whatever to be had, considering how simple leveling in WoW is, but I agree they've gone overboard.
If you think "multiplayer game" means "huge artificial power gaps in favor of those who play more", go check out multiplayer genres where people win with practice, not because they get access to twice as powerful weapons and units after logging 1337 hoursDon't try throwing this in my face. I've been extremely critical of the PvP system in WoW and I hate the easy-mode effect given to many classes. The Honor system is a grind comparable to L2 for rewards that are only worthwhile for physical classes. With that said, practice DOES matter more than equipment in many cases.
I was not in a PvE or PvP powerguild. We did raid for the items but we didn't spend as much time as you seem to think, and we didn't PvP for honor points or ranking. We progressed quite slowly through MC and BWL and made short work of ZG, but in PvP we were arguably the best on our server, easily defeating the guilds who had finished MC and BWL months before us. The BG system turned into PvP garbage but we still dominated BGs and world PvP, without putting in the time hardcore PvE or PvP guilds did.
If you can't acknowledge that WoW divides the playerbase into a group of people for whom endgame means AQ/BWL, and another for whom it means UBRS/DM, you should really lay off the drugs and pay more attention to your surroundings
No, that is wrong. Like I said before, you're skewing the amount of time needed to do large raids. With enough "practice," we were finishing ZG and MC in the time a PUG takes to do UBRS/DM. It was partially due to the items, but even with much worse items the time taken isn't terribly overwhelming. I'd wager 90% of Americans spend far more time watching TV than needed to finish a raid in a week.
raid 10hrs/week after you did the lvl.60 group content = upgrades and a steady flow of fresh content; don't raid after that for 10-1000hrs/week = you don't move an inch, how hard's that to understand?Ok, so assuming you can't spend the 5-6 (honestly, it's not 10 unless you're playing with idiots or going more seriously) hours per week to finish an instance, you can still spend time on part of an instance. Almost every guild subs in and out players to raids so even if you can't spend more than a couple hours there's ways to get in.
A nicer alternative to story advancing would be removing the 1 week instance reset, but that's a Blizzard decision and I'm sure 99% of "powergamers" wouldn't care if it were taken out or extended.
The current story simply can't go much deeper without better support for raiding. I'm sure more 5 mans will be added, but their difficulty will again be dependant on time spent and they won't be very relevant to the main part of the game. Beyond that are issues everyone agrees Blizzard should fix. Weapons being too powerful and not enough craftable items.
If you want to go ad hominem, fine. My Hello Kitty touch was much more clever anyways. I'm just going to re-emphasize that raids don't take as much time as you think and epic items aren't quite as important as you think. Mages are the perfect example of this. Magisters and Arcanist are both terrible items and take far more time to obtain than random blues from UBRS/DM/etc. Even before my purples, I had little trouble with most players who had better equipment than me simply because they were bad, and that's the most important factor. Coming from L2, I didn't really consider skill a contributor in an MMORPG, but it's astonishing how many people are simply bad at PvP in WoW, with or without equipment.
Everyone has a choice. Whether you choose your job over the game or the game over school, it's a choice. You shouldn't expect comparable treatment to the customers that spend a lot more time in the game- it simply doesn't work for balance.
There is NO way to offer similar end game experiences to people who choose to play differently. If they put in more content for people who choose not to spend more time playing, the rewards earned would be extremely limited and there would be complaints about that.
How can you complain that you're totally outmatched by people who spend more time playing, thus having better equipment and teamwork. Would you just like to remove PvP all together? Then there would be nothing to work in PvE towards and everyone would be equally as inept as you!
I can't stand EQ nor do I even like big raiding, but I understand it's a requirement to having the strongest character and there simply is no way to balance things between casual and hardcore gamers. The hardcore gamers will always be "stronger."
As far as the story line goes, how can you expect it to work if small groups or single players are able to progress? Are you going to solo a dragon? Does your 5 man group have any business trying to engage a god or titan? No. Any large challenge (even 5 manning UBRS) requires lots of time, which you don't want to give up, which is perfectly fair.
If you're going to keep complaining about that dilemna, I suggest you try this (http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php?s=introduction) MMO. It'll solve all your problems.
 Anyone else play EQ2 on the pvp servers?
 Archlord
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Come on WoW!